This mishap took place in naturist club, is just a coincidence. It can happen anywhere. It has happened only because of the specific inhuman tendency of the person. It has nothing to do with place, age, religion, community, profession etc. Hope that the poor young girl recovers very soon & starts her normal life..
I read the story in the Star Tribune. The circumstances are strange. Too begin with, how was it this man got this girl's mobile number, anyway? She had to have given it to him. According to the story, the man was "described" to the girl as a "family friend" - which indicates she didn't know him before they met at the resort. But if she had just met him at the resort, why in the world is she giving her mobile number to a total stranger? The story doesn't make clear about the period of time these text messages cover. If they just met at the resort, is it even possible all of these messages were sent just on that occasion? Did he continue to text her after they met at the resort? And if she is getting these kinds of text messages from him, why isn't she telling anyone about it?
The story makes it very clear: what happened at the resort between the man and the girl was not stopped, nor was it discovered, at the resort itself. The reason this man was arrested is because the story says the girl's mother found these text message on her daughter's phone and reported the man to the police. After the fact. We might assume the "family friend" status of this man might have been with these grandparents - since all are probably in the same age range. We don't know if these grandparents are the mother's parents or in laws. But we can presume the mother was well aware they were taking her daughter to this resort, and gave her blessing for them to do so. I do think the thrust of your piece is underscored by the fact the story tells us how he ended up arrested: it was after all this was done. So nobody at the resort saw or knew this was going on.
If the resorts are either unaware or willfully blind to things like this, then it destroys what they try to build: trust that resorts like this are safe. Unlike many, I'm saying this girl is partially to blame for this. If she gives her number to this man she's never met, and he starts texting her for lewd photos of her and her friends, she has an obligation to report it. To her family first and foremost. But also to the resort, so they can take the steps to banish him. What I want to know is: why didn't she do it?
As a boy who was also victimised in this way, I can tell you why this girl didn't disclose the abuse and why she may have given the man her phone number. For a kid, it's not nearly as easy as you think! There is a huge difference in power, authority, maturity, cognition, emotional control - the list goes on. I'd had several perpetrators by the time I'd reached 13 and at the time it was impossible for me to figure out how to make this stuff stop in a way that wasn't going to get me crucified as well - or so I thought at the time, because I was made to feel like it was more my fault than anyone else's. And you might think I was partly to blame as well. That's how evil the manipulation is!
I can't agree that the girl is to blame for the outcome as reported.
Any grown man should be well aware that no matter what a 14-year-old girl says or does, maintaining an intimate relationship either physically or via txt message is inappropriate.
Even if she instigated the contact, as an adult, there is an opportunity to teach the child about boundaries and appropriate behaviour. Involve her parents or guardians, not to punish her or humiliate her, but to empower her and show her that she does not have to stay silent or be a victim.
We agree it's wholly inappropriate for any adult to sext with a minor. Where we disagree is on the responsibility the minor has. At issue is the point where a teenager has cognition to understand the world they inhabit, in real time. Example. There are times teenagers commit capital crimes, and they are held to an adult standard when they stand trial - the court itself rejecting the idea that their age precludes them from understanding the consequences of their actions. So to throw a blanket of wholesale excusing of responsibility over someone due to their age is a ridiculous social construct. As if to say someone is unable to comprehend understand the events of a sex predator at 17 and resides comfortably under this blanket of exoneration, only to lose it the very next day on an 18th birthday. As if the date itself magically imbues the individual with all the psychological tools they will now need because that construct social protection blanket is ripped off in one fell swoop, thanks to a calendar. The point being that her failure to report him destroys the reputation of the resort. Had THEY made the call to the police it would have cast the resort in righteous posture of protecting its patrons. It also allows the same man to keep doing the same thing to other minors.
Nudists always tend to bristle loudly when they defend with almost hysteria that no sexual conduct occurs at resorts. The claim always goes the resorts are as wholesome and pure as virgin snow. Those of us who have actually been to such resorts know full well this is untrue. I'll speak for myself, but any others here would say the same (if they are being totally honest): I have witnessed sexual activity in such resorts, and openly. I have been invited to participate in such activity (yes, sometimes I accepted). Which is all the more reason to ensure parents remind their children of why they must always be aware of men like this one in the news story. If there is a failure here, it's on the part of the girl's nuclear family unit. Which you mention above. On that, we agree wholeheartedly.
Nick, I understand and agree with your comments about naturist clubs and resorts trying to give the impression that they are squeaky clean and no sexual activity happens there. You are right - that is a total nonsense. Clubs are made up of people and we are sexual creatures. Of course people have sex at resorts, just as they do anywhere else they happen to be living at the time - there is nothing wrong with that.
But where your logic is totally flawed is trying to somehow place some share of guilt on the minor for what happened to her! Comparing a teenager that has been insidiously drawn into a sexual encounter with a manipulating predator to another teenager that has committed a capital offence such as murder is utterly ridiculous!
For a start, you have twisted the story. The girl was 14 when the mother reported it (according to the article). She could have been 13 or younger when the actual abuse took place. She wasn't 17, as you implied in your crazy comparison. There is a huge difference in the capabilities between a 14 year old and a 17 year old!
A child is usually drawn into a sexual act with an adult by that adult executing a series of highly manipulative tactics to lure the child in - plying with gifts and promises of special treatment and favours. It's called "grooming". Once the child has been successfully drawn in they are certainly aware that what they have participated in is wrong, but by then it's too late. They are then threatened with harm if they divulge the secret, or refuse further contact. The kid is trapped - not only by the perpetrator, but by every adult that they think will either not believe them or, worse still, place the blame on them - such as you would seem to do!
You really need to do some serious study on this insidious crime before commenting further!
"But where your logic is totally flawed is trying to somehow place some share of guilt on the minor for what happened to her!"
I am sorry for what you went through as a child. I think you need to reread and comprehend what I said. I didn't blame her for what happened to her. I blame her for not telling anyone what happened to her. It seems you are creating a narrative I never wrote so you could sound off as you like. It's actually YOU who needs to refrain from commenting, since you attribute to me what I never said.
I've seen it. A man in his 40s/50s with a teenage girl. I've talked about it with others who also confirmed they've seen it and reported it. Yet, nothing will be done about it for the simple reason that nothing yet has happened (to anyone's knowledge). And *that* is the part that really infuriates me.
Why must we wait? Everyone can see how inappropriate things are. Everyone can see the grooming. Everyone can feel the dynamic. Yet, simply because the man might claim innocence nothing will be done. Because there is a desire to protect other people who might also talk to teenage girls and might therefore be at risk of supposedly false accusations.
How is any of this helpful to anyone? This is how we fail kids. Not just in naturist communities but everywhere. Because we believe we can't do anything until something happens as one person's s feelings take precedence over another person's safety.
I'm writing with quite a bit of anger here because the majority of this is a gendered issue and so I'll apologize once (but not again) for words misplaced that might offend. It's so frustrating to think about how many centuries things like this have lasted.
I don't think you need to apologise for carrying anger over this, you are not the only one and there is no easy answer.
I am a firm believer that men should not be accused of criminal behaviour for bathing their children or using parents' rooms to change their soiled child, examples of which have happened here and in other countries. Many men will now walk past a crying child rather than comfort it, so as not to be accused of inappropriate interest in a child.
We should all be able to recognise inappropriate behaviour and call it out when we see it, without having to wait until someone is hurt or some legal line is crossed. Unfortunately, not everyone can spot the difference, and as such some men are unfairly branded as predators, while others are left to get away with abuse. There are famous examples where innocent men have spent years in prison for crimes against children, when in fact they are entirely innocent.
While innocent until proven guilty is a basic tenet of our legal system, and something I agree with, I am not sure how we overcome the frustration that this legal situation creates.
There are no easy answers, and no one size fits all solution.
I think we need to create a situation where we educate our children so that they know what is inappropriate behaviour and give them the confidence to talk to others about it when it happens to them. Not talking to them about it is only hurting them.
"I think we need to create a situation where we educate our children so that they know what is inappropriate behaviour and give them the confidence to talk to others about it when it happens to them. Not talking to them about it is only hurting them."
Absolutely! The difficulty is in getting kids to understand what that inappropriate behaviour looks like. Jeeze, it's not easy for adults, let alone kids! The situation can start off quite innocently, and back in the day I had some excellent adult friends who were exceptionally kind and helpful, along with those few who had other intentions. The evil ones also present themselves initially as kind and helpful. That's how kids get drawn into the trap. Wolves in sheep's clothing.
Texting? So what? The boy across the road from me texts me when he wants to know if there any jobs he can do for some pocket money, or if he can come over to update his Playstation games on our WiFi. The other kid a few doors down texts me when he's coming over to do the lawns. He almost always stays afterwards to have a coke and a chat. There is nothing necessarily sinister about a child texting with an adult. The problem for the child is how to discern between those adults who have genuine caring intentions, and those who are predators, before it's too late.
Yet it seems there are those who would blame the child for failing to do so. One commenter here is more worried about the reputation of their precious resort being damaged by the girl's "failure to report", than the girl's welfare! That person has now blocked me - an action that speaks a thousand words about them!
As a male, the sense of vulnerability is part of the charm I find in being naked. Nudists need to be aware that a female may not share that sense. Men don't live in fear of rape. Many women do. Vulnerability is to be feared. Clothing is a kind of armor. If a man assaults a woman, clothing is something that has to be dealt with.
It is also viewed as a sheath for a dangerous weapon. Many women and men consider a penis to be a sexual weapon. The difference between fully clothed and fully nude is viewed like the difference between keeping it secured in an inaccessible holster vs. brandishing it about.
Not everyone looks at it this way but the serious opponents of nudity do. This is just a confirmation to them.
Instances like this are aggregated by the idea of vulnerability when naked. There is no changing that response. I believe pointing out that this can happen anywhere is appropriate, but unfortunately falls well short of being the answer.
I feel that civil suits against perpetrators at naturist clubs would be appropriate. Most clubs have visitors and members sign a code of conduct which this would violate. I know this does nothing to help the public perception, but it can be an additional deterrent when it is known to happen.
I think that is a common reaction. I am not sure that I would wish that on anyone, however, from a point of view of karma, it is an understandable response. I don't think being dealt to in prison will help the offender change, perhaps it will make him regret getting caught.
Of course these things happen everywhere, but by stressing the “family friendly” nature of nudist/naturist venues and always highlighting the non-sexual aspect of our nakedness, when such things happen on our watch the repercussions are amplified. By saying “these things don’t happen here, we take more precautions than anyone”, we set ourselves up for a harder fall than other groups might face.
And no, I don’t know what the answer is, except redouble the vigilance.
Nov 30, 2023·edited Nov 30, 2023Liked by BOPBadger
This guy is lower than whale sh*t. He has single handedly destroyed a young girl's perceptions of a community of likeminded people and put into question the legitimacy of a whole way of life for Naturists in response. Yes, this can and does happen anywhere, but now we have to circle the wagons to defend against an onslaught of a public response to this. Current legislative bills in Wisconsin seek to reduce our freedoms for even less. What a slug. My opinion is that he should face the wrath of the legal system. Let him finish his days incarcerated.
This mishap took place in naturist club, is just a coincidence. It can happen anywhere. It has happened only because of the specific inhuman tendency of the person. It has nothing to do with place, age, religion, community, profession etc. Hope that the poor young girl recovers very soon & starts her normal life..
I read the story in the Star Tribune. The circumstances are strange. Too begin with, how was it this man got this girl's mobile number, anyway? She had to have given it to him. According to the story, the man was "described" to the girl as a "family friend" - which indicates she didn't know him before they met at the resort. But if she had just met him at the resort, why in the world is she giving her mobile number to a total stranger? The story doesn't make clear about the period of time these text messages cover. If they just met at the resort, is it even possible all of these messages were sent just on that occasion? Did he continue to text her after they met at the resort? And if she is getting these kinds of text messages from him, why isn't she telling anyone about it?
The story makes it very clear: what happened at the resort between the man and the girl was not stopped, nor was it discovered, at the resort itself. The reason this man was arrested is because the story says the girl's mother found these text message on her daughter's phone and reported the man to the police. After the fact. We might assume the "family friend" status of this man might have been with these grandparents - since all are probably in the same age range. We don't know if these grandparents are the mother's parents or in laws. But we can presume the mother was well aware they were taking her daughter to this resort, and gave her blessing for them to do so. I do think the thrust of your piece is underscored by the fact the story tells us how he ended up arrested: it was after all this was done. So nobody at the resort saw or knew this was going on.
If the resorts are either unaware or willfully blind to things like this, then it destroys what they try to build: trust that resorts like this are safe. Unlike many, I'm saying this girl is partially to blame for this. If she gives her number to this man she's never met, and he starts texting her for lewd photos of her and her friends, she has an obligation to report it. To her family first and foremost. But also to the resort, so they can take the steps to banish him. What I want to know is: why didn't she do it?
As a boy who was also victimised in this way, I can tell you why this girl didn't disclose the abuse and why she may have given the man her phone number. For a kid, it's not nearly as easy as you think! There is a huge difference in power, authority, maturity, cognition, emotional control - the list goes on. I'd had several perpetrators by the time I'd reached 13 and at the time it was impossible for me to figure out how to make this stuff stop in a way that wasn't going to get me crucified as well - or so I thought at the time, because I was made to feel like it was more my fault than anyone else's. And you might think I was partly to blame as well. That's how evil the manipulation is!
Some details reported are not clear.
I can't agree that the girl is to blame for the outcome as reported.
Any grown man should be well aware that no matter what a 14-year-old girl says or does, maintaining an intimate relationship either physically or via txt message is inappropriate.
Even if she instigated the contact, as an adult, there is an opportunity to teach the child about boundaries and appropriate behaviour. Involve her parents or guardians, not to punish her or humiliate her, but to empower her and show her that she does not have to stay silent or be a victim.
We agree it's wholly inappropriate for any adult to sext with a minor. Where we disagree is on the responsibility the minor has. At issue is the point where a teenager has cognition to understand the world they inhabit, in real time. Example. There are times teenagers commit capital crimes, and they are held to an adult standard when they stand trial - the court itself rejecting the idea that their age precludes them from understanding the consequences of their actions. So to throw a blanket of wholesale excusing of responsibility over someone due to their age is a ridiculous social construct. As if to say someone is unable to comprehend understand the events of a sex predator at 17 and resides comfortably under this blanket of exoneration, only to lose it the very next day on an 18th birthday. As if the date itself magically imbues the individual with all the psychological tools they will now need because that construct social protection blanket is ripped off in one fell swoop, thanks to a calendar. The point being that her failure to report him destroys the reputation of the resort. Had THEY made the call to the police it would have cast the resort in righteous posture of protecting its patrons. It also allows the same man to keep doing the same thing to other minors.
Nudists always tend to bristle loudly when they defend with almost hysteria that no sexual conduct occurs at resorts. The claim always goes the resorts are as wholesome and pure as virgin snow. Those of us who have actually been to such resorts know full well this is untrue. I'll speak for myself, but any others here would say the same (if they are being totally honest): I have witnessed sexual activity in such resorts, and openly. I have been invited to participate in such activity (yes, sometimes I accepted). Which is all the more reason to ensure parents remind their children of why they must always be aware of men like this one in the news story. If there is a failure here, it's on the part of the girl's nuclear family unit. Which you mention above. On that, we agree wholeheartedly.
Nick, I understand and agree with your comments about naturist clubs and resorts trying to give the impression that they are squeaky clean and no sexual activity happens there. You are right - that is a total nonsense. Clubs are made up of people and we are sexual creatures. Of course people have sex at resorts, just as they do anywhere else they happen to be living at the time - there is nothing wrong with that.
But where your logic is totally flawed is trying to somehow place some share of guilt on the minor for what happened to her! Comparing a teenager that has been insidiously drawn into a sexual encounter with a manipulating predator to another teenager that has committed a capital offence such as murder is utterly ridiculous!
For a start, you have twisted the story. The girl was 14 when the mother reported it (according to the article). She could have been 13 or younger when the actual abuse took place. She wasn't 17, as you implied in your crazy comparison. There is a huge difference in the capabilities between a 14 year old and a 17 year old!
A child is usually drawn into a sexual act with an adult by that adult executing a series of highly manipulative tactics to lure the child in - plying with gifts and promises of special treatment and favours. It's called "grooming". Once the child has been successfully drawn in they are certainly aware that what they have participated in is wrong, but by then it's too late. They are then threatened with harm if they divulge the secret, or refuse further contact. The kid is trapped - not only by the perpetrator, but by every adult that they think will either not believe them or, worse still, place the blame on them - such as you would seem to do!
You really need to do some serious study on this insidious crime before commenting further!
"But where your logic is totally flawed is trying to somehow place some share of guilt on the minor for what happened to her!"
I am sorry for what you went through as a child. I think you need to reread and comprehend what I said. I didn't blame her for what happened to her. I blame her for not telling anyone what happened to her. It seems you are creating a narrative I never wrote so you could sound off as you like. It's actually YOU who needs to refrain from commenting, since you attribute to me what I never said.
"I blame her for not telling anyone what happened to her."
That's my point. And I tried to explain to you why it's usually impossible for a child in this situation to speak out.
Project all you like. I stand by every word I wrote. Enough of this. I'll thank you not to respond to me anymore.
I've seen it. A man in his 40s/50s with a teenage girl. I've talked about it with others who also confirmed they've seen it and reported it. Yet, nothing will be done about it for the simple reason that nothing yet has happened (to anyone's knowledge). And *that* is the part that really infuriates me.
Why must we wait? Everyone can see how inappropriate things are. Everyone can see the grooming. Everyone can feel the dynamic. Yet, simply because the man might claim innocence nothing will be done. Because there is a desire to protect other people who might also talk to teenage girls and might therefore be at risk of supposedly false accusations.
How is any of this helpful to anyone? This is how we fail kids. Not just in naturist communities but everywhere. Because we believe we can't do anything until something happens as one person's s feelings take precedence over another person's safety.
I'm writing with quite a bit of anger here because the majority of this is a gendered issue and so I'll apologize once (but not again) for words misplaced that might offend. It's so frustrating to think about how many centuries things like this have lasted.
I don't think you need to apologise for carrying anger over this, you are not the only one and there is no easy answer.
I am a firm believer that men should not be accused of criminal behaviour for bathing their children or using parents' rooms to change their soiled child, examples of which have happened here and in other countries. Many men will now walk past a crying child rather than comfort it, so as not to be accused of inappropriate interest in a child.
We should all be able to recognise inappropriate behaviour and call it out when we see it, without having to wait until someone is hurt or some legal line is crossed. Unfortunately, not everyone can spot the difference, and as such some men are unfairly branded as predators, while others are left to get away with abuse. There are famous examples where innocent men have spent years in prison for crimes against children, when in fact they are entirely innocent.
While innocent until proven guilty is a basic tenet of our legal system, and something I agree with, I am not sure how we overcome the frustration that this legal situation creates.
There are no easy answers, and no one size fits all solution.
I think we need to create a situation where we educate our children so that they know what is inappropriate behaviour and give them the confidence to talk to others about it when it happens to them. Not talking to them about it is only hurting them.
"I think we need to create a situation where we educate our children so that they know what is inappropriate behaviour and give them the confidence to talk to others about it when it happens to them. Not talking to them about it is only hurting them."
Absolutely! The difficulty is in getting kids to understand what that inappropriate behaviour looks like. Jeeze, it's not easy for adults, let alone kids! The situation can start off quite innocently, and back in the day I had some excellent adult friends who were exceptionally kind and helpful, along with those few who had other intentions. The evil ones also present themselves initially as kind and helpful. That's how kids get drawn into the trap. Wolves in sheep's clothing.
Texting? So what? The boy across the road from me texts me when he wants to know if there any jobs he can do for some pocket money, or if he can come over to update his Playstation games on our WiFi. The other kid a few doors down texts me when he's coming over to do the lawns. He almost always stays afterwards to have a coke and a chat. There is nothing necessarily sinister about a child texting with an adult. The problem for the child is how to discern between those adults who have genuine caring intentions, and those who are predators, before it's too late.
Yet it seems there are those who would blame the child for failing to do so. One commenter here is more worried about the reputation of their precious resort being damaged by the girl's "failure to report", than the girl's welfare! That person has now blocked me - an action that speaks a thousand words about them!
As a male, the sense of vulnerability is part of the charm I find in being naked. Nudists need to be aware that a female may not share that sense. Men don't live in fear of rape. Many women do. Vulnerability is to be feared. Clothing is a kind of armor. If a man assaults a woman, clothing is something that has to be dealt with.
It is also viewed as a sheath for a dangerous weapon. Many women and men consider a penis to be a sexual weapon. The difference between fully clothed and fully nude is viewed like the difference between keeping it secured in an inaccessible holster vs. brandishing it about.
Not everyone looks at it this way but the serious opponents of nudity do. This is just a confirmation to them.
An interesting take that I had not really considered.
Instances like this are aggregated by the idea of vulnerability when naked. There is no changing that response. I believe pointing out that this can happen anywhere is appropriate, but unfortunately falls well short of being the answer.
I feel that civil suits against perpetrators at naturist clubs would be appropriate. Most clubs have visitors and members sign a code of conduct which this would violate. I know this does nothing to help the public perception, but it can be an additional deterrent when it is known to happen.
Other ideas?
I hope some big strong man makes that living mound of human excrement into his rape slave. Prisons are bad places for kid diddlers.
I think that is a common reaction. I am not sure that I would wish that on anyone, however, from a point of view of karma, it is an understandable response. I don't think being dealt to in prison will help the offender change, perhaps it will make him regret getting caught.
Of course these things happen everywhere, but by stressing the “family friendly” nature of nudist/naturist venues and always highlighting the non-sexual aspect of our nakedness, when such things happen on our watch the repercussions are amplified. By saying “these things don’t happen here, we take more precautions than anyone”, we set ourselves up for a harder fall than other groups might face.
And no, I don’t know what the answer is, except redouble the vigilance.
This guy is lower than whale sh*t. He has single handedly destroyed a young girl's perceptions of a community of likeminded people and put into question the legitimacy of a whole way of life for Naturists in response. Yes, this can and does happen anywhere, but now we have to circle the wagons to defend against an onslaught of a public response to this. Current legislative bills in Wisconsin seek to reduce our freedoms for even less. What a slug. My opinion is that he should face the wrath of the legal system. Let him finish his days incarcerated.