I'd guess that the word 'pervert' was used as a form of 'clickbait' to up sales, no offence meant but $80 is more than I'd have paid to satisfy my curiosity. But judging books by their covers can lead to false initial first impressions, but those first ones are very important in influencing what we do or think next.
The USA-centic approach reminds me of times when being online in the very early days of the internet, and before then, I'd sometimes come across citizens of the USA who were telling the 'world' that such and such should not happen, as it was illegal. Probing further uncovered the fact that those spouting those sort of broad-sweeping statements were often from the USA. Gently pointing out that we were on the World Wide Web could sometimes rile them, although all I was trying to do was point out that laws in different countries can vary. Thankfully while the laws on public and social nudity in the UK are far from perfect I am glad that we have a, sometimes, more liberal outlook on it.
I should point out that I have good friends from the USA. Who live there, here and elsewhere, some even understand that I am a nudist, not a pervert!
I totally agree with you.. Though the book doesn't say that the naturism is not a sexual minority, however the book title misleads..The title should have been a different one to avoid the misconception..
It all depends on which direction you are viewing nudism from. For most people, nudity is usually sexual. From their perspective we are a sexual minority. They enjoy the sexuality that they associate with skimpy or no clothing and may feel that we are trying to take that away from them.
Now, some people will claim that we are lying (or delusional) and there's really sexuality boiling just below the surface that we don't let anyone see. Others will say that not feeling sexually aroused by coed nudity is itself an aberrant sexuality. (You can define someone as a sexual minority as much by what they don't feel as much as by what they do feel. Being totally asexual is also a sexual minority.) Others think that flouting this social norm is absurd, regardless of whether sex is involved or not.
Their use of the word "pervert" is rather ham handed. It is too easy for people to take their use literally rather than a sly, backhanded rejection of the term. I also have an issue with interviewing "elites." So called elites often do not reflect the values of the mainstream members and will not reflect the diversity of opinion in the nudist community. Put ten nudists in a room and you'll get 12 unique opinions on many subjects.
We appreciate your engagement with our book. We should point out that we do not claim this is a nationally representative sample, rather, because this project is on the frontier of political science in the US, we used convenience samples for in person interviews and virtual snowball samples for online interviews. This is the first project that reveals the political activities and attitudes of these groups.
We appreciate and understand your feedback about the title. As is perhaps obvious, the title is a provocative nod to how non-group members perceive the different groups we studied, rather than a claim about the groups. The puritanical history of the United States and how nudists and naturists have been policed under anti-indecency and sexuality laws may make having to combat that specific misperception about nudism and naturism more relevant in the US than in other countries. Because policing and legal precarity have increased for all these groups in the US, we hope the title invites the unfamiliar or misinformed to learn more about these groups. Thank you again for engaging with our book. We hope that it helps to stem a tide of misinformation and scapegoating, and perhaps excite a growing academic interest in each of the communities in our study.
I am a member of Penn Sylvan. It is a tiny park. It surprises me that an author would choose it for research. I wonder when they were there. I wonder if the interviewees knew they were being interviewed.
The dates that the various sites were visited are not given in the book, or if they are, I couldn't find them. I couldn't find any reference as to why Penn Sylvan was chosen, my guess is that it would have been suggested to them by someone in their social circle or by someone they interviewed earlier on in the process. I am confident that the interviewees knew that they were being interviewed. The list of questions asked is published in the book.
I have not read that book and I have never been to the US, but I watch with increasing amazement how a naked body is viewed in politics, in the media and in a large part of society.
I disagree. I think the purpose of the book is to look at the political and legislative challenges faced by minority groups in th US. I don't think there is any attempt to discredit naturists or any other group, but I do think the title of the book is unfortunate.
Perhaps we nudists could be considered a sexual minority because the majority of the (American) population strongly equates nudity with sexuality, while we don't make that connection? Our understanding that sexual activity can be separate from nudity is a nontraditional "political attitude" ABOUT sex.
An alternate definition of 'Pervert' is to cause to turn away from what is generally done or accepted. We as nudists have definitely turned away from the norm and could be considered perverts. But, alas, the noun pervert is strongly associated with sexual perversion. Will we ever have a world where people are accepted no matter how they are dressed or undressed.
For every pleasure a man has, it is to be considered a 'guilt.' But every pleasure a woman has, it is to be considered The Way. An avalanche of shame is unleashed upon a man who is enjoying himself. You are to feel guilty for enjoying life.
Hey Shawn, I'm a woman. Would you like to come and tell me all the ways I've personally helped make your life sad instead of bothering the author of this post about something unrelated to the topic? Don't worry, I'm sure I'll find more ways to do that! 😄
I'm not sure I agree with you on this. I accept that naked men are seen as more of a threat than naked women, and that shame is used in a manipulative way to try and control behaviour, but not every pleasure is considered a guilt.
For every pleasure *a man has*... i.e. female only spaces are provided, protected, and revered. Male only spaces are looked at with suspicion, infiltrated, and subverted. They are eventually ceded and lose the original Respect. Men simply cannot enjoy the camaraderie of fellow men without females taking it over, under the threat of legal action. The obverse is non existent. No man aspires to become part of a female centric organization.
That may be your experience where you are, but here in New Zealand, not so much. Here we do have gender-specific spaces, but by and large, these are limited to changing rooms, saunas and gyms. I am not aware of any male-only spaces here being infiltrated and subverted. We have plenty of spaces where men can enjoy the camaraderie of fellow men if they choose.
I might not aspire to become part of a female-centric group, but I also don't aspire to be part of a group that excludes women.
Rather than focusing on our differences, perhaps we should all focus on what we share. All genders are people.
From my point of view there are usually 2 biological genders at birth, although there are a number of genital variances that sit outside the binary concept. I would not call these variances abnormal or defects, but rather uncommon occurrences. In addition, there are a myriad of gender identities, and I am not going to be drawn into the validity of them. I treat all people with civility, respect and humanity and my judgement of them is based upon their actions and behaviour towards me rather than how they identify.
In actual fact, Steve, there are only ever two biological genders - male and female - assigned by nature at conception - not by a doctor at birth. The variances that you refer to are all genetic aberrations that occur, such as XXY: Klinefelter syndrome (affecting boys), XXX: Triple X syndrome, also called trisomy X or 47,XXX, (affecting girls), XYY: Jacobs syndrome, (affecting boys). There are also a number of other genetic abnormalities that can occur, resulting in ambiguous genitalia requiring further tests to diagnose - Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome, Swyer syndrome, 5-Alpha-Reductase Deficiency, Hyperspadias, among others. None of these are "intersex/nonbinary" or "other sexes. They are medical conditions caused by different genetic developmental mistakes. These people are still either male or female.
If gender has variances and is a binary concept then why are there only 2 options for gender reassignment surgery? Moreover, why are Men told to accept female hormones but females are told to not accept male hormones?
Really enjoyed this post Steve, and come of the follow on discussion in the comments. I too bristled at the initial description of nudism as a sexual orientation, and don’t even get me started on “pervert”. Definitely not a word I would ever embrace. In fact, it really gets me spun up. Anyway….But I see the approach, and word choice as a means of drawing you in.
I find the naturist tribe’s social and political thought to be much more varied than most people expect. It seems like any attempt to paint naturists with a broad brush quickly runs into “but what about…” thoughts. Often times the differences are incredibly minor, particularly when viewed by non-naturists. I often describe having my own brand of naturism, as a means of providing some flexibility. Some variances are small, but others seem larger. But I’ve always felt that the roots are common — respect, understanding, compassion, admiration and support of nature, belief in a positive body image, celebration of the nude human form. Maybe I’m way off.
Regardless, this is one of the things I enjoy about the naturist Substack community, if I may describe such a group — thought provoking, interesting, naturist discussions. Great way for me to start my nude Sunday. Thanks!
I understand why the sexual categorization and word "pervert" chafe but I also see the way it's being used in this particular book which has to do with monority politics. I'm in neutral territory.
My more neutral approach is influenced by the fact that women's breasts are sexualized, even while breastfeeding. A former close friend would even comment about how women could at least try to cover up. (This friend did not have any biological children and children not get past seeing breasts as sexual -- she was a woman, BTW.) Is it annoying to have to deal with this? Yes. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it going to change? Nope. I have no hopes for that. So the strategy is just to shrug shoulders when you see it and realize it's someone else's issue and not yours. A further note, too, is that asexual is also counted as a sexual identity, which has nothing to do with sex.
The word "pervert" -- again, I think this has to do with being hit over and over with crappy views. After a while, you just grow immune to them and then claim them tongue-in-cheek to take their power away. Lots of people who participate in things like WNBR get called pervs.
I would suggest writing to the book's authors and expressing the views to them. Most academic authors are happy to have discussions and you could sway their minds. I'd be interested in understanding if the group is perceived as a single voting block.
Thank you for your comments. The survey revealed that as a group, nudists were a closer reflection of the general population than the other minority groups considered.
That makes sense. Poly and Bi are defined sexual identities vs nudism and naturism that are not sexual identities. Neither is BDSM for that matter. I think maybe the more relevant question is if nudism and naturism place someone into minority politics identities. I think that maybe they do, simply for the fact that the things that are centered on in naturism and nudism go against the majority.
I wrote a book that covers many of the topics mentioned in your article. I think it entertaining for naturists who enjoy a good mystery tale, while at the same time illuminating for the non-naturist precisely what naturism is, and what it is not.
Naked Came The Hunter is a great book by myself, M. J. Edington. That book has been a hit with Linda Weber, president elect of the American Association for Nude Recreation (AANR) and Helen Barriman, an officer with British Naturism (BN), and many others.
It is a work of fiction designed to provide a glimpse into naturism without being 'preachy' or pontificating the philosophy.
I would challenge readers to view it as an intriguing tale of a man found dying in a forest in West Virginia and rescued by hikers from the Eagle Mountain Natuist Enclave. He must recover from near fatal injuries while also facing a degree of culture shock. As he learns about naturism, the reader also receives accurate information about the reality of non-sexual social naturism.
Did you visit the Amazon site and read the story description, perhaps? The odds of a book similar to mine are rather miniscule as I drew heavily from personal experience in crafting my story.
Too many books are out there claim to be nudist/naturist themed. Then, once you get into the story, discover it is written with erotic or salacious overtones. Part of my motivation was to author a clean naturist tale of non-sexual nudism as you'd find at any AANR resort, club or facility. As Linda Weber described it, a wholesome book.
I invite you to read the description found on Amazon. Unless I am mistaken, you can download a free bit from the book and get an idea of the content before making a decision whether it's for you.
Or, do a google search for my name if you wish and you'll find ample information about me and my work.
As I mentioned above, I have already bought your book - on the strength of your description, the information on Amazon about the book and you, and the reviews. I look forward to reading it.
The story I referred to, and re-found, is "The Guardians" by Nikola Novak in "Adventures Without Clothes - an anthology of the best naturist adventure stories" published by The Naturist Fiction Collaboration in 2023. I downloaded from Kindle when it was published.
I aspire to be your "perfect reader [who] would be intelligent, open-minded, and willing to challenge themselves to learn about the different aspects of humanity while uncovering the naked truths that we all are human beings, perfect as we were created to be."
As writers one would expect the authors of this work to have more respect for words. “We use the term with affection and respect in the same aesthetic vein it is used by members of these groups” they say, but in doing so ignore the fact they are talking to an audience not members of “these groups” who don’t regard “pervert” with affection - quite the opposite.
Thanks for buying and reading the book on our behalf, Steve, and thank you for exposing its “research” as half-assed nonsense.
I'd guess that the word 'pervert' was used as a form of 'clickbait' to up sales, no offence meant but $80 is more than I'd have paid to satisfy my curiosity. But judging books by their covers can lead to false initial first impressions, but those first ones are very important in influencing what we do or think next.
The USA-centic approach reminds me of times when being online in the very early days of the internet, and before then, I'd sometimes come across citizens of the USA who were telling the 'world' that such and such should not happen, as it was illegal. Probing further uncovered the fact that those spouting those sort of broad-sweeping statements were often from the USA. Gently pointing out that we were on the World Wide Web could sometimes rile them, although all I was trying to do was point out that laws in different countries can vary. Thankfully while the laws on public and social nudity in the UK are far from perfect I am glad that we have a, sometimes, more liberal outlook on it.
I should point out that I have good friends from the USA. Who live there, here and elsewhere, some even understand that I am a nudist, not a pervert!
I totally agree with you.. Though the book doesn't say that the naturism is not a sexual minority, however the book title misleads..The title should have been a different one to avoid the misconception..
It all depends on which direction you are viewing nudism from. For most people, nudity is usually sexual. From their perspective we are a sexual minority. They enjoy the sexuality that they associate with skimpy or no clothing and may feel that we are trying to take that away from them.
Now, some people will claim that we are lying (or delusional) and there's really sexuality boiling just below the surface that we don't let anyone see. Others will say that not feeling sexually aroused by coed nudity is itself an aberrant sexuality. (You can define someone as a sexual minority as much by what they don't feel as much as by what they do feel. Being totally asexual is also a sexual minority.) Others think that flouting this social norm is absurd, regardless of whether sex is involved or not.
Their use of the word "pervert" is rather ham handed. It is too easy for people to take their use literally rather than a sly, backhanded rejection of the term. I also have an issue with interviewing "elites." So called elites often do not reflect the values of the mainstream members and will not reflect the diversity of opinion in the nudist community. Put ten nudists in a room and you'll get 12 unique opinions on many subjects.
We appreciate your engagement with our book. We should point out that we do not claim this is a nationally representative sample, rather, because this project is on the frontier of political science in the US, we used convenience samples for in person interviews and virtual snowball samples for online interviews. This is the first project that reveals the political activities and attitudes of these groups.
We appreciate and understand your feedback about the title. As is perhaps obvious, the title is a provocative nod to how non-group members perceive the different groups we studied, rather than a claim about the groups. The puritanical history of the United States and how nudists and naturists have been policed under anti-indecency and sexuality laws may make having to combat that specific misperception about nudism and naturism more relevant in the US than in other countries. Because policing and legal precarity have increased for all these groups in the US, we hope the title invites the unfamiliar or misinformed to learn more about these groups. Thank you again for engaging with our book. We hope that it helps to stem a tide of misinformation and scapegoating, and perhaps excite a growing academic interest in each of the communities in our study.
best regards -
Tony Smith, Shawn Schulenberg, and Connor Strobel
Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate your comments.
I am a member of Penn Sylvan. It is a tiny park. It surprises me that an author would choose it for research. I wonder when they were there. I wonder if the interviewees knew they were being interviewed.
The dates that the various sites were visited are not given in the book, or if they are, I couldn't find them. I couldn't find any reference as to why Penn Sylvan was chosen, my guess is that it would have been suggested to them by someone in their social circle or by someone they interviewed earlier on in the process. I am confident that the interviewees knew that they were being interviewed. The list of questions asked is published in the book.
I have not read that book and I have never been to the US, but I watch with increasing amazement how a naked body is viewed in politics, in the media and in a large part of society.
Цель этой книги опорочить название натурист, связав его с сексуальными извращениями.
I disagree. I think the purpose of the book is to look at the political and legislative challenges faced by minority groups in th US. I don't think there is any attempt to discredit naturists or any other group, but I do think the title of the book is unfortunate.
Perhaps we nudists could be considered a sexual minority because the majority of the (American) population strongly equates nudity with sexuality, while we don't make that connection? Our understanding that sexual activity can be separate from nudity is a nontraditional "political attitude" ABOUT sex.
An alternate definition of 'Pervert' is to cause to turn away from what is generally done or accepted. We as nudists have definitely turned away from the norm and could be considered perverts. But, alas, the noun pervert is strongly associated with sexual perversion. Will we ever have a world where people are accepted no matter how they are dressed or undressed.
For every pleasure a man has, it is to be considered a 'guilt.' But every pleasure a woman has, it is to be considered The Way. An avalanche of shame is unleashed upon a man who is enjoying himself. You are to feel guilty for enjoying life.
Hey Shawn, I'm a woman. Would you like to come and tell me all the ways I've personally helped make your life sad instead of bothering the author of this post about something unrelated to the topic? Don't worry, I'm sure I'll find more ways to do that! 😄
You are plenty sad all on your own. You are incapable of transferring that sadness to anyone but your cat.
I'm not sure I agree with you on this. I accept that naked men are seen as more of a threat than naked women, and that shame is used in a manipulative way to try and control behaviour, but not every pleasure is considered a guilt.
For every pleasure *a man has*... i.e. female only spaces are provided, protected, and revered. Male only spaces are looked at with suspicion, infiltrated, and subverted. They are eventually ceded and lose the original Respect. Men simply cannot enjoy the camaraderie of fellow men without females taking it over, under the threat of legal action. The obverse is non existent. No man aspires to become part of a female centric organization.
That may be your experience where you are, but here in New Zealand, not so much. Here we do have gender-specific spaces, but by and large, these are limited to changing rooms, saunas and gyms. I am not aware of any male-only spaces here being infiltrated and subverted. We have plenty of spaces where men can enjoy the camaraderie of fellow men if they choose.
I might not aspire to become part of a female-centric group, but I also don't aspire to be part of a group that excludes women.
Rather than focusing on our differences, perhaps we should all focus on what we share. All genders are people.
So, how many genders are there?
From my point of view there are usually 2 biological genders at birth, although there are a number of genital variances that sit outside the binary concept. I would not call these variances abnormal or defects, but rather uncommon occurrences. In addition, there are a myriad of gender identities, and I am not going to be drawn into the validity of them. I treat all people with civility, respect and humanity and my judgement of them is based upon their actions and behaviour towards me rather than how they identify.
In actual fact, Steve, there are only ever two biological genders - male and female - assigned by nature at conception - not by a doctor at birth. The variances that you refer to are all genetic aberrations that occur, such as XXY: Klinefelter syndrome (affecting boys), XXX: Triple X syndrome, also called trisomy X or 47,XXX, (affecting girls), XYY: Jacobs syndrome, (affecting boys). There are also a number of other genetic abnormalities that can occur, resulting in ambiguous genitalia requiring further tests to diagnose - Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome, Swyer syndrome, 5-Alpha-Reductase Deficiency, Hyperspadias, among others. None of these are "intersex/nonbinary" or "other sexes. They are medical conditions caused by different genetic developmental mistakes. These people are still either male or female.
If gender has variances and is a binary concept then why are there only 2 options for gender reassignment surgery? Moreover, why are Men told to accept female hormones but females are told to not accept male hormones?
"...many societies do not have the pathological fear of nudity that the U.S. seems to carry."
This perfectly describes New England, USA. (Except Vermont).
Not much of that fear in SF, or Portland, or Seattle, if their reactions to the WNBR is used to judge. Other cities are extremely intolerant.
A lot more of the USA than just New England, I might add.
Really enjoyed this post Steve, and come of the follow on discussion in the comments. I too bristled at the initial description of nudism as a sexual orientation, and don’t even get me started on “pervert”. Definitely not a word I would ever embrace. In fact, it really gets me spun up. Anyway….But I see the approach, and word choice as a means of drawing you in.
I find the naturist tribe’s social and political thought to be much more varied than most people expect. It seems like any attempt to paint naturists with a broad brush quickly runs into “but what about…” thoughts. Often times the differences are incredibly minor, particularly when viewed by non-naturists. I often describe having my own brand of naturism, as a means of providing some flexibility. Some variances are small, but others seem larger. But I’ve always felt that the roots are common — respect, understanding, compassion, admiration and support of nature, belief in a positive body image, celebration of the nude human form. Maybe I’m way off.
Regardless, this is one of the things I enjoy about the naturist Substack community, if I may describe such a group — thought provoking, interesting, naturist discussions. Great way for me to start my nude Sunday. Thanks!
I understand why the sexual categorization and word "pervert" chafe but I also see the way it's being used in this particular book which has to do with monority politics. I'm in neutral territory.
My more neutral approach is influenced by the fact that women's breasts are sexualized, even while breastfeeding. A former close friend would even comment about how women could at least try to cover up. (This friend did not have any biological children and children not get past seeing breasts as sexual -- she was a woman, BTW.) Is it annoying to have to deal with this? Yes. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it going to change? Nope. I have no hopes for that. So the strategy is just to shrug shoulders when you see it and realize it's someone else's issue and not yours. A further note, too, is that asexual is also counted as a sexual identity, which has nothing to do with sex.
The word "pervert" -- again, I think this has to do with being hit over and over with crappy views. After a while, you just grow immune to them and then claim them tongue-in-cheek to take their power away. Lots of people who participate in things like WNBR get called pervs.
I would suggest writing to the book's authors and expressing the views to them. Most academic authors are happy to have discussions and you could sway their minds. I'd be interested in understanding if the group is perceived as a single voting block.
Thank you for your comments. The survey revealed that as a group, nudists were a closer reflection of the general population than the other minority groups considered.
That makes sense. Poly and Bi are defined sexual identities vs nudism and naturism that are not sexual identities. Neither is BDSM for that matter. I think maybe the more relevant question is if nudism and naturism place someone into minority politics identities. I think that maybe they do, simply for the fact that the things that are centered on in naturism and nudism go against the majority.
Great discussion Steve and MM!
I wrote a book that covers many of the topics mentioned in your article. I think it entertaining for naturists who enjoy a good mystery tale, while at the same time illuminating for the non-naturist precisely what naturism is, and what it is not.
Naked Came The Hunter is a great book by myself, M. J. Edington. That book has been a hit with Linda Weber, president elect of the American Association for Nude Recreation (AANR) and Helen Barriman, an officer with British Naturism (BN), and many others.
It is a work of fiction designed to provide a glimpse into naturism without being 'preachy' or pontificating the philosophy.
I would challenge readers to view it as an intriguing tale of a man found dying in a forest in West Virginia and rescued by hikers from the Eagle Mountain Natuist Enclave. He must recover from near fatal injuries while also facing a degree of culture shock. As he learns about naturism, the reader also receives accurate information about the reality of non-sexual social naturism.
Just bought it on Kindle - I recall reading a similar story 'somewhere' recently.
Did you visit the Amazon site and read the story description, perhaps? The odds of a book similar to mine are rather miniscule as I drew heavily from personal experience in crafting my story.
Too many books are out there claim to be nudist/naturist themed. Then, once you get into the story, discover it is written with erotic or salacious overtones. Part of my motivation was to author a clean naturist tale of non-sexual nudism as you'd find at any AANR resort, club or facility. As Linda Weber described it, a wholesome book.
I invite you to read the description found on Amazon. Unless I am mistaken, you can download a free bit from the book and get an idea of the content before making a decision whether it's for you.
Or, do a google search for my name if you wish and you'll find ample information about me and my work.
Until later,
Happy reading.
Naturally Yours,
M. J. Edington
As I mentioned above, I have already bought your book - on the strength of your description, the information on Amazon about the book and you, and the reviews. I look forward to reading it.
The story I referred to, and re-found, is "The Guardians" by Nikola Novak in "Adventures Without Clothes - an anthology of the best naturist adventure stories" published by The Naturist Fiction Collaboration in 2023. I downloaded from Kindle when it was published.
I aspire to be your "perfect reader [who] would be intelligent, open-minded, and willing to challenge themselves to learn about the different aspects of humanity while uncovering the naked truths that we all are human beings, perfect as we were created to be."
Thank you for a great response. Thank you also for buying my book. I believe you'll enjoy reading it.
On another note, I'll check out the book you referenced "Adventures Without Clothes.
Sounds like a pleasant read. Thank you for the reference.
Naturally Yours,
M. J. Edington
Thank you, I will look out for it.
As writers one would expect the authors of this work to have more respect for words. “We use the term with affection and respect in the same aesthetic vein it is used by members of these groups” they say, but in doing so ignore the fact they are talking to an audience not members of “these groups” who don’t regard “pervert” with affection - quite the opposite.
Thanks for buying and reading the book on our behalf, Steve, and thank you for exposing its “research” as half-assed nonsense.