Well expressed article about the always discussed topic "äs to why women are not there in naturism as compared to men". The concerns you raised in the article are very genuine...
Here's another thought, Steve. I've long been considering the contradiction and incompatibility between the naturist ethos of respect (for others, for self, and for the environment) and the use of pornography - particularly by males. It surprises me that even those in the highest echelons of naturist organisations cannot see the paradox, seemingly totally unaware of the damage that porn does, and how this has an effect on women.
You might find this article by Jonathon Van Maren an very interesting read . . .
I have long felt that the proliferation and ease of access to pornography will have a huge social impact, and society will suffer the fallout, perhaps forever. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle.
You missed the point. Most women view nudity of their body as a way to obtain favors from men, a commercial commodity. That goes for wives too. Since nudism doesn't offer favors for being naked, it is of little interest to women. That is true for most women whether it's overt like OF, or more hidden like "dates" or wives. Men are valued for doing things. Women are valued for being a female body, it's her value in life, it's not being given away for free.
That is an interesting suggestion. While it might be true for some, I struggle to accept that it applies to most. It may have been a common opinion some time ago, but I'm not sure that makes it correct or valid in today's world. Both men and women are capable of using manipulation to get their way, and in my experience men are more manipulative than women. I find your assertion, that a woman's value in life is her body, flawed and I must disagree with you.
Well written and unfortunately it reflects my wife’s experience in the few times she has joined me in naturist settings: having a man set up his chair directly in front of hers and stare her down, or being shouted at for wearing bottoms (not in a pool or in all nude campground, but just laying out in a latch of sand in a clothing optional resort). These early experiences destroyed whatever openness to naturism she had.
exactly i have ran a few off and at haulover we had the police called they arrested a guy who had laid his towel right in frt of my wife and couple other girls basically right lined up between their legs sad
This is right on. It seems to be far less of a problem outside of North America and perhaps the British Isles. Seems to be something about the Puritans and their heritage. Not sure we'll fix it in our lifetimes.
As I was reading this, I had a thought. First let me say that thanks to God and His using naturism as an aid, I have come to view the human body completely different than my former self. I no longer look at a woman as an object for my sexual satisfaction. I see her as a fellow human made in God's image.
A side effect of this change is that I no longer see "really hot" women or ugly women. You may not believe me but after a few months enjoying the freedom that comes from Naturism, I realized I no longer see them this way. It is an incredible side effect of my coming to accept Naturism as being an OK way to live, and my release from the addiction of porn.
But..... I do realize that so many of the "lurkers" out there and many other men for that matter, are looking for a hot woman to sexualize in their mind, or worse, in real life. So the thought that hit me was this: What if women started to create their profiles with this in mind, and instead of finding pictures that make them look more attractive, what if they purposely tried to make themselves look as unattractive as they can? Wouldn't this get rid of a lot of people who are trying to make connections for the wrong reasons. Would it at least help in women finding men who are interested in their minds rather than just their bodies?
I know that there may be a lot of people out there that disagree with this. I completely understand. I am not saying this should be done. I am just putting it out there for people to consider as something that might keep women from getting bombarded with illicit messages, which might make them more likely to feel comfortable in the Naturist community.
I honestly don't think it would make a difference. Why is the responsibility on women to change? Why don't we all call out inappropriate behaviour? I believe that the problem is men, not all men, but enough men.
Like yourself, I no longer see naked people in the same way as I did as a youngster; all I see now are people.
I completely agree. The problem is with the men. But can women also try to do things which will help to keep the problem (the men) in check, or make them a little less aggressive. Again, not saying it is right. Just pondering.
I think women do try and keep men in check. The issue for many women is that they do this in many areas of their lives, all the time. Why is it their responsibility to make men less aggressive? They are not the problem; we are.
It's not their responsibility. Just brainstorming ideas to try to get women to feel comfortable with naturism. More ideas means more chances we can find something that will help.
I think you have hit on a fundamental truth about nudist women. It's not that women are hesitant to show their bodies in public. It's that they want to be paid for body exposure. That's why OF is so popular among women, but nudism is not.
I disagree. OnlyFans is not popular because women want to be paid for exposing themselves, but it is popular because men are willing to pay to see naked women.
A cogent and sensible discussion as always, Steve, and rehearsing many of the “why no women?” discussion points - though almost always made by men because …. there’re no women!
The one argument never heard whenever there is a perceived lack of a particular group in an activity (be that naturism, juggling, skydiving, anything) is that maybe that group just doesn’t want to.
Could it simply be that going naked appeals to something in the male psyche but doesn’t appeal to the female psyche? Does there have to be a deeper reason, especially one that sets parts of society against each other?
A debate we’ve had in the UK is whether the countryside is racist, because non-white people don’t go hiking. No one has suggested that perhaps, as a social group, they don’t enjoy hiking, there has to be a flaw in society keeping them out.
The same might be said of women, ethnic groups, young people, choristers or flower-arrangers when it comes to naturism.
"If you are posting naked pictures of yourself to entice others, the fact that your door is not being beaten down with hordes of people overwhelmed by the majesty of your manhood might suggest that it isn’t as impressive as you think."
This is probably my favourite paragraph in your piece, Steve! It never ceases to amaze me how so many men who purport to be seasoned naturists - even some who have been on the NZNF Executive - can't resist a man-spread shot of the family jewels or an arm's length selfie that must include the obligatory penis shot. Naturism claims to be a non-sexual philosophy, but to many men it clearly is sexual. I'm constantly removing or declining pics of penises in various states of arousal from Hauraki Naturally's various platforms. It really is frustrating!
The obvious lack of women on naturist online sites has been an ongoing question for me, and you seem to have reached the same conclusion that I've come to - mostly the barrage of unwanted attention.
I have a theory about that. and my theory has been reinforced by my attendance at Kiwiburn for the last two years. At Kiwiburn nudity is commonplace - both with males and females, as well as kids. Nobody feels unsafe because there is an understanding of consent and it is well understood amongst the 2,000 or more participants in the festival. But it's NOT a nudist or naturist festival. There is no emphasis on nudity - everyone is free to wear or not wear whatever they like. And that's what attracted me to attend, as it's closely aligned with Hauraki Naturally's clothing-freedom advocacy.
So that was a light-bulb moment for me. I believe that naturist and nudist venues - both physical places and online spaces - are bombarded by men because they are sought out by men thinking they will gain some sexual gratification. Men are visual creatures and a naturist place will certainly provide plenty of visual material of naked bodies. I imagine most naturist men will deny that applies to them, but I suspect that, even subconsciously, that is the case.
I'm now focusing on events that have a special interest other than nudity, and removing nudity as the focus. In fact all our activities are now clothing-optional. People are free to partake in activities in whatever clothing they choose - or be naked if they choose. Not everyone has to be naked to make it normal and acceptable.
Well expressed article about the always discussed topic "äs to why women are not there in naturism as compared to men". The concerns you raised in the article are very genuine...
Here's another thought, Steve. I've long been considering the contradiction and incompatibility between the naturist ethos of respect (for others, for self, and for the environment) and the use of pornography - particularly by males. It surprises me that even those in the highest echelons of naturist organisations cannot see the paradox, seemingly totally unaware of the damage that porn does, and how this has an effect on women.
You might find this article by Jonathon Van Maren an very interesting read . . .
https://open.substack.com/pub/jonathonvanmaren/p/why-young-women-fear-dating?r=xs5og&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
I have long felt that the proliferation and ease of access to pornography will have a huge social impact, and society will suffer the fallout, perhaps forever. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle.
I agree. Even if all traces of porn were removed from the planet today, I believe it will take several generations to undo the damage.
You missed the point. Most women view nudity of their body as a way to obtain favors from men, a commercial commodity. That goes for wives too. Since nudism doesn't offer favors for being naked, it is of little interest to women. That is true for most women whether it's overt like OF, or more hidden like "dates" or wives. Men are valued for doing things. Women are valued for being a female body, it's her value in life, it's not being given away for free.
That is an interesting suggestion. While it might be true for some, I struggle to accept that it applies to most. It may have been a common opinion some time ago, but I'm not sure that makes it correct or valid in today's world. Both men and women are capable of using manipulation to get their way, and in my experience men are more manipulative than women. I find your assertion, that a woman's value in life is her body, flawed and I must disagree with you.
well said and i agree the ladies who show up do get ogled to much we have seen a few of the cases while we are at the nude beaches
Well written and unfortunately it reflects my wife’s experience in the few times she has joined me in naturist settings: having a man set up his chair directly in front of hers and stare her down, or being shouted at for wearing bottoms (not in a pool or in all nude campground, but just laying out in a latch of sand in a clothing optional resort). These early experiences destroyed whatever openness to naturism she had.
exactly i have ran a few off and at haulover we had the police called they arrested a guy who had laid his towel right in frt of my wife and couple other girls basically right lined up between their legs sad
I'm not sure how anyone would think that was acceptable behaviour.
I’m sorry your wife had such negative experiences.
This is right on. It seems to be far less of a problem outside of North America and perhaps the British Isles. Seems to be something about the Puritans and their heritage. Not sure we'll fix it in our lifetimes.
As I was reading this, I had a thought. First let me say that thanks to God and His using naturism as an aid, I have come to view the human body completely different than my former self. I no longer look at a woman as an object for my sexual satisfaction. I see her as a fellow human made in God's image.
A side effect of this change is that I no longer see "really hot" women or ugly women. You may not believe me but after a few months enjoying the freedom that comes from Naturism, I realized I no longer see them this way. It is an incredible side effect of my coming to accept Naturism as being an OK way to live, and my release from the addiction of porn.
But..... I do realize that so many of the "lurkers" out there and many other men for that matter, are looking for a hot woman to sexualize in their mind, or worse, in real life. So the thought that hit me was this: What if women started to create their profiles with this in mind, and instead of finding pictures that make them look more attractive, what if they purposely tried to make themselves look as unattractive as they can? Wouldn't this get rid of a lot of people who are trying to make connections for the wrong reasons. Would it at least help in women finding men who are interested in their minds rather than just their bodies?
I know that there may be a lot of people out there that disagree with this. I completely understand. I am not saying this should be done. I am just putting it out there for people to consider as something that might keep women from getting bombarded with illicit messages, which might make them more likely to feel comfortable in the Naturist community.
I honestly don't think it would make a difference. Why is the responsibility on women to change? Why don't we all call out inappropriate behaviour? I believe that the problem is men, not all men, but enough men.
Like yourself, I no longer see naked people in the same way as I did as a youngster; all I see now are people.
I completely agree. The problem is with the men. But can women also try to do things which will help to keep the problem (the men) in check, or make them a little less aggressive. Again, not saying it is right. Just pondering.
I think women do try and keep men in check. The issue for many women is that they do this in many areas of their lives, all the time. Why is it their responsibility to make men less aggressive? They are not the problem; we are.
It's not their responsibility. Just brainstorming ideas to try to get women to feel comfortable with naturism. More ideas means more chances we can find something that will help.
I think you have hit on a fundamental truth about nudist women. It's not that women are hesitant to show their bodies in public. It's that they want to be paid for body exposure. That's why OF is so popular among women, but nudism is not.
The vast majority of women are not on Only Fans, and are not looking to get paid for exposure. I think you may have missed the point of the OP.
I disagree. OnlyFans is not popular because women want to be paid for exposing themselves, but it is popular because men are willing to pay to see naked women.
Spot on.
A cogent and sensible discussion as always, Steve, and rehearsing many of the “why no women?” discussion points - though almost always made by men because …. there’re no women!
The one argument never heard whenever there is a perceived lack of a particular group in an activity (be that naturism, juggling, skydiving, anything) is that maybe that group just doesn’t want to.
Could it simply be that going naked appeals to something in the male psyche but doesn’t appeal to the female psyche? Does there have to be a deeper reason, especially one that sets parts of society against each other?
A debate we’ve had in the UK is whether the countryside is racist, because non-white people don’t go hiking. No one has suggested that perhaps, as a social group, they don’t enjoy hiking, there has to be a flaw in society keeping them out.
The same might be said of women, ethnic groups, young people, choristers or flower-arrangers when it comes to naturism.
You may well have a point.
"If you are posting naked pictures of yourself to entice others, the fact that your door is not being beaten down with hordes of people overwhelmed by the majesty of your manhood might suggest that it isn’t as impressive as you think."
This is probably my favourite paragraph in your piece, Steve! It never ceases to amaze me how so many men who purport to be seasoned naturists - even some who have been on the NZNF Executive - can't resist a man-spread shot of the family jewels or an arm's length selfie that must include the obligatory penis shot. Naturism claims to be a non-sexual philosophy, but to many men it clearly is sexual. I'm constantly removing or declining pics of penises in various states of arousal from Hauraki Naturally's various platforms. It really is frustrating!
The obvious lack of women on naturist online sites has been an ongoing question for me, and you seem to have reached the same conclusion that I've come to - mostly the barrage of unwanted attention.
I have a theory about that. and my theory has been reinforced by my attendance at Kiwiburn for the last two years. At Kiwiburn nudity is commonplace - both with males and females, as well as kids. Nobody feels unsafe because there is an understanding of consent and it is well understood amongst the 2,000 or more participants in the festival. But it's NOT a nudist or naturist festival. There is no emphasis on nudity - everyone is free to wear or not wear whatever they like. And that's what attracted me to attend, as it's closely aligned with Hauraki Naturally's clothing-freedom advocacy.
So that was a light-bulb moment for me. I believe that naturist and nudist venues - both physical places and online spaces - are bombarded by men because they are sought out by men thinking they will gain some sexual gratification. Men are visual creatures and a naturist place will certainly provide plenty of visual material of naked bodies. I imagine most naturist men will deny that applies to them, but I suspect that, even subconsciously, that is the case.
I'm now focusing on events that have a special interest other than nudity, and removing nudity as the focus. In fact all our activities are now clothing-optional. People are free to partake in activities in whatever clothing they choose - or be naked if they choose. Not everyone has to be naked to make it normal and acceptable.